acoustica.org.uk: back when the world was flat

Does anyone know how to soundproof a room? I want to get be able to listen to music loud in the lounge whilst Lisa watches TV upstairs. The way our house is laid out the lounge is bottom right (viewed from the side) and the bedroom is top right (where the TV is).

I think most of the sound is leaking into the bedroom via the bedroom floor. The bedroom is over the kitchen and hall which both have doors off the lounge, neither of these doors are very good at stopping sound. Sound can also travel up the stairs from the hall and through the bedroom door. Because of this I intend to change the hall / lounge door for something better, luckily Lisa dislikes the look of the existing door. I was thinking of a well fitted solid wood door, as it will be painted does it make any difference what type of wood?

This will still leave the sound to travel upwards into the bedroom, does anyone know a good way to stop this? I am sure I have heard stories of using sand to fill the gap between ceiling plasterboard and floorboards, would this or some other material work? The only other option I can think of is would be to put a false floor down with something in between, this would cause problems with split level floor upstairs though.

Any ideas anyone.

Kevin.

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Date: October 06, 1999 12:01 AM
Author: Joel Benford (joel@netcomuk.co.uk)
Subject: Half-useful FAQ

Try the alt.sci.physics.acoustics FAQ. There's an html version and some links at:

http://www.point-and-click.com/Campanella_Acoustics/faq/faq.htm

It all turns out to be a bit different from what you expected.

Joel

Born to groove

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Edit*

Date: October 06, 1999 12:12 AM
Author: Martin Clark (mrfc@architypes.freeserve.co.uk)
Subject: quietly now..

The key to soundproofing is isolation - preventing the transmission of unwanted vibration passing on by 1) controlling the in-air path 2) absorbing what you can 3) causing a high "insertion loss" ie lots of mass in the way which is difficult to vibrate in the first place.

How effective a solution you can cook up depends on thoughtful analysis, the degree of upheaval you can tolerate and your budget. Look to solve the most direct paths first; in your case its transmission through the floor which is the problem -it's an area-weighted thing.

Subjectively the most annoying sound you'll need to stop is the bass content below 100Hz, for which the only solution is mass. A 102mm brick wall plastered both sides gives you about 40dB loss, and weighs c. 300Kg/m-2 . Unless you have a concrete upper floors you won't get any where near this with pugging (sand loading), if only because your ceiling is now resting on the floor....

Probably the best solution in this case is a mix of mass and absorption . Briefly it involves installing a second ceiling - loosing of about 150 mm of headroom - on framing spanning between the walls, covered on the underside with two layers of plasterboard (second layer laid perpendicular to the first, with sealed joints) with 50 -75mm of fibreglass mat in the space below the original ceiling. Seal the edge of the new ceiling to the walls with mastic. This construction will provide up to 38dB of isolation, which is about as good as it gets. A 'normal' suspended ceiling will not only *not* work,it could be even *worse* at certain frequencies - and might well severely upset/attenuate the bass balance in the room.

If this sounds like too much bother, and you have suspended timber floor above with plaster/plasterbord ceiling, you could try a second layer of plasterboard on the ceiling - it's much easier and cleaner than adding sand above (and just as dense) - *and* laying an isolated floor in the bedroom; try 18mm flooring grade chipboard floating on as little as 6mm of foam underlay.

Next down the list in significance (and it is quite a way down) is the in-air path. After you've achieved a lossy (massive) enclosure, you need to get fussy about even tiny holes. The keyhole in a door typically halves the door panels acoustic isolation (in a frequency-dependant way); but there is usually about a hundred times as much free area between the edge of the door and the frame....so seals to all four edges are a must, whether or not your doors are heavy, ie hardwood and solid core ( and no, the timber type is irrlevant).

Beyond this point, returns plummet. There are inherent problems which are truly difficult to deal with and will ultimately limit the isolation achievable eg. masonry walls resonate around 80Hz, ie have isolation minima at this point; flanking transmission through common structure etc.

It's quite a minefield to address the problems of balancing isolation, cost, upheaval and maintaining /improving the acoustic of the listening space, but it can be done - and with only a few comparitively simple measures. I've no references to hand at the mo., but email me direct if you wish and maybe I'll be able to help generate a few ideas that are more specific.

Hope this helps,

Martin

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Date: October 06, 1999 01:18 AM
Author: Greg Beatty
Subject: WOW!!!...

...and I was going to suggest headphones.

Sheesh.

- GregB

REALLY impressed by your post - that was scarry man, scarry.

(http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=39250)

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Date: October 06, 1999 04:31 PM
Author: Kevin Hughes (Kevin_M_Hughes@Hotmail.com)
Subject: Phones

Greg,

Headphones are my last resort, I just figure for what I may spend on headphones + amp I may be able to get the sound insulation done. Worth investigating.

Kevin.

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Date: October 06, 1999 06:33 PM
Author: John Channing (john.channing@cwcom.net)
Subject: A Better Solution

Would be to get your girlfriend to wear the headphones whilst watching TV, that way, any old cheap pair of headphones will do and you can spend the money you've saved on some new music or an upgrade. ; )

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Date: October 06, 1999 07:53 PM
Author: Kevin Hughes (Kevin_M_Hughes@Hotmail.com)
Subject: women

get your girlfriend to wear the headphones whilst watching TV

Got much experience with women John ;-)

Lisa is quite tolerant, she likes the look of speakers that most women hate, she is prepared to watch TV upstairs on the crap TV, I am allowed to have Mana in the lounge if I want to etc...

I don't really think I can force her to use 'phones when I wont.

Kevin.

(http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=39295)

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Date: October 06, 1999 08:51 PM
Author: Joel Benford (joel@netcomuk.co.uk)
Subject: 'er upstairs

> Lisa is quite tolerant, she likes the look of speakers that most women hate,

When she first saw my DBLs Lisa immediately told Kevin "You're not having those in the lounge". However, a quick dose of PJ Harvey convinced her that they were much smaller than they looked at first sight. Smart woman.

Joel

Born to groove

(http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=39308)

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Date: October 07, 1999 03:41 PM
Author: Kevin Hughes (Kevin_M_Hughes@Hotmail.com)
Subject: FBL's

On looks alone I would not like DBL's in my lounge, even as a hi-fi nerd. The first time I saw DBL's my response was "f**King hell there ugly ...", this seems a very common response.

If cash was not a problem I would learn to live with them mind.

Kevin.

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Date: October 07, 1999 04:10 PM
Author: Tony Lonorgan (tony@pfmedia.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Massive

The first time I saw DBL's my response was "f**King hell there ugly ...", this seems a very common response.

Every time I see Jawed's they seem a little smaller, I certainly wouldn't nominate them for a style award, though I think ugly is perhaps too strong a word. Jawed's are in birch finish, so are very light in colour ñ they perhaps look more like book shelves from a certain perspective than conventional speakers, being roughly that size and in a similar location. Joel's are ebony, so are very dark and to my mind are more imposing, though they do look rather cool in a sort of Marshall stack kind of way.

They are a very good speaker ñ don't know if they are what I would choose at that price, but they would definitely be on my shortlist.

Tony

Die-hard vinyl nutter from hell.

(http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=39345)

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Date: October 07, 1999 04:33 PM
Author: Joel Benford (joel@netcomuk.co.uk)
Subject: DBL finishes

Jawed's are beech, not birch.

Joel

Born to groove

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Date: October 07, 1999 04:36 PM
Author: Kevin Hughes (Kevin_M_Hughes@Hotmail.com)
Subject: ugly

My ugly comment was directed at the dem pair Jawed had in walnut, the beech pair are much better, its only the size that makes you reel. Its a shame about the black foam on the front though. Ebony ones a much better than walnut, but not as nice as beech.

Kevin.

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Date: October 07, 1999 04:53 PM
Author: Tony Lonorgan (tony@pfmedia.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Finish

My ugly comment was directed at the dem pair Jawed had in walnut...

Retro style 1976 Formica was the phrase that came to mind!

The recent beech and ebony ones (like Jawed's and Joel's) both feature a really nice quality veneer. I think the current cabinet maker produces a far more attractive and higher quality finish than the previous ones - I have noticed this right across the Naim speaker range, current ones look much nicer.

Tony

Die-hard vinyl nutter from hell.

(http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=39351)

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Date: October 07, 1999 04:36 PM
Author: Joel Benford (joel@netcomuk.co.uk)
Subject: Acclimatisation

You get used to them, or perhaps I should say resign yourself to them, in much the same way as you (really) would get used to a VW Kombi in the lounge after a couple of days.

Visitors take some breaking in.

Joel

Born to groove

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Date: October 07, 1999 05:16 PM
Author: Tony Lonorgan (tony@pfmedia.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Oi London commuters...

You get used to them, or perhaps I should say resign yourself to them, in much the same way as you (really) would get used to a VW Kombi in the lounge after a couple of days.

...there's a parking space in Joel's lounge.

Tony

Die-hard vinyl nutter from hell.

(http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=39356)

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Date: October 07, 1999 06:30 PM
Author: ngoh hock soon (hock@fpcg.com.my)
Subject: NBLs vs DBLs

This may be an unconventional view, but when I finally saw the NBLs, I said, "Fock, these are so boring-looking, I'd rather have the DBLs in my living room". At least they look like speakers of a serious music fan...

I still think the most elegant Naim speakers are IBLs and SBLs.

Hock

(http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=39359)

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Date: October 07, 1999 08:18 PM
Author: Willem VAN GEMERT (gema@vo.lu)
Subject: Agree completely!

Bravo Hock!

I agree completely. It's the same what I thought when I first saw the NBL's, especially in the bright colours you see them everywhere. In the black ash version on Cliff's homepage they looked a bit more like a Naim loudspeaker to me. Anyway, my favorites remain the SBL's. Great simple design!

Ciao!

Willem

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Date: October 08, 1999 01:38 PM
Author: Cliff Patterson (cliff.patterson@abscon.co.uk)
Subject: black

Hey Hock, try some in black. Ultra cool.

Cliff
trying out NBLszzzzzzz
dreaming of 3 NAP500s

(http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=39415)

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Date: October 07, 1999 08:28 PM
Author: Joe Petrik (jpetrik@mb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: I'll show you ugly

I guess ugly is in the eye of the beholder, but if you ask me few speakers can top the original Quads for butt-ugliness.

When first seeing my Quads, my buddy thought they were radiators -- or maybe the back seat of a DeSoto.

Joe

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Date: October 07, 1999 08:47 PM
Author: Peter Maddex (Peter.Maddex@NTU.AC.UK)

I'll agree about them looking like radiators but ugly, no, I haven't had the hart to sell mine although I don't use them any more and the wife wants me to, I guess I will have to find them a good home one day sob sob

Pete... Mad Bad and Dangerous to Know

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Date: October 07, 1999 08:48 PM
Author: Peter Maddex (Peter.Maddex@NTU.AC.UK)

Pete... Mad Bad and Dangerous to Know

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Date: October 07, 1999 08:57 PM
Author: Tony Lonorgan (tony@pfmedia.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Aha...

I guess I will have to find them a good home one day sob sob

How much?

Tony

Die-hard vinyl nutter from hell.

(http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=39373)

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Date: October 07, 1999 08:54 PM
Author: Tony Lonorgan (tony@pfmedia.demon.co.uk)
Subject: ESL57

I guess ugly is in the eye of the beholder, but if you ask me few speakers can top the original Quads for butt-ugliness.

I think they look great, I would probably use them if I could be sure of getting a good pair and had more room. I certainly like what they do sound wise (very clean, very fast) - excellent value too. One of the best speakers ever made.

Tony

Die-hard vinyl nutter from hell.

(http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=39372)

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Date: October 07, 1999 09:22 PM
Author: Joe Petrik (jpetrik@mb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: those '57s

One of the best speakers ever made.

Yup, and I rue the day I sold mine for a pair of Saras, another butt-ugly speaker. Not sure what I was thinking at the time. Sure, Saras had deeper bass and played a bit louder -- or at least without the concurrent light show -- but the Quads were better in just about every other way, except maybe for projecting a soundstage.

That speaker was about as flat as they come.

Joe

P.S. Anyone heard Quad's latest ESL? They'd have a winner if they just took the original Quad and put it in a prettier box.

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Date: October 08, 1999 03:22 AM
Author: Mike Hanson (Mike@BoxsoftDevelopment.com)
Subject: New ESLs

I was at the Toronto stereo show last week-end, and the new Quad ESLs were there (in the same room with the Canton speakers). I've never heard the original ESLs, although I've certainly heard much about them. It seems that the legend continues with these new models.

There were two major features that struck me. The first was the astonishingly palpable presentation. It felt like I was experiencing a performance, rather than listening to a recording.

The second was the lack of a sweet spot. Normally electrostatic speakers require that you sit "just so". This no longer seems to be an issue, and the dispersion is very respectable.

My one complaint involved their basic personality. The presentation was almost too personal. I prefer the signal to be a little "bigger" sounding. This may have been the source equipment, though. I didn't pay much attention to it, unfortunately.

BTW, they still look like plastic radiators. Apparently there will be a taller one (6-panels instead of 4) for those people wanting more of a wall-of-sound. That would probably alleviate my one complaint. Beyond that, this was a very nice speaker. The price was $10K(Cdn). I've heard that there around $7K(US). Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Date: October 06, 1999 10:27 PM
Author: John Channing (john.channing@cwcom.net)
Subject: Strange views

Got much experience with women John ;-)

Hey Kevin, I was just testing to see whether you could get away with that! Lets face it, it is the best solution ;)

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Date: October 06, 1999 04:26 PM
Author: Kevin Hughes (Kevin_M_Hughes@Hotmail.com)
Subject: Thanks

Martin,

Like Greg said, wow, it amazes me the amount of knowledge people are prepared to share on this conference. I will have to have think about what you said.

One question, I can currently listen at a slightly to low volume in the lounge and upstairs is almost totally quiet. If I put something in that has 38dB attenuation does this mean I can listen 38dB louder in the lounge? If so that sounds plenty loud.

Kevin.

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Date: October 06, 1999 07:08 PM
Author: Greg Beatty
Subject: I Agree...

..this conference ROCKS!!!

And, of course, headphones (for you) do not allow you to share the tunes with visitors.

- GregB

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Date: October 07, 1999 01:29 AM
Author: Martin Clark (mrfc@architypes.freeserve.co.uk)

Sorry no it doesn't..it's got far too much to do with logarithms to be that simple :-( - if only because your existing floor probably betters 24 dB of isolation /-24dB gain / whatever.

Sorry guys it's been to long a day to get my head round this one now...38dB on top of most peoples preferred listening levels would at least pop the windows out - and your ear drums...

Regards

Martin

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Date: October 08, 1999 02:07 PM
Author: Paul Ogle (paul.ogler@btinternet.com)
Subject: Be patient

Kevin,

I think that Martin Clark has given you a lot of good pointers. One of the things that will help (yes I know..... yawn) is Mana, certainly under speakers. Also lots of large (soft) things in a room help, like rugs and throws on the wall, sofas, pictures, large plants etc. The more a room is 'lived in' the better it sounds.

Next time you come round you will have to go upstairs and have a listen from one of the kids room. You can still hear the music but I do play at fairly high levels.

Paul

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Date: October 08, 1999 03:29 PM
Author: Kevin Hughes (Kevin_M_Hughes@Hotmail.com)
Subject: the sound of silence

The living room is looking fairly well lived in these days, no shortage of sort funrishings in there either, if fact I may have over done it now. Lisa is probably less tolerant of noise than your kids. it's one of her major things.

A professional is coming round in the next few ideas to give me ideas and a quote, will see what he suggests.

Kevin.

(http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=39432)

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Date: October 11, 1999 04:18 PM
Author: Kevin Hughes (Kevin_M_Hughes@Hotmail.com)
Subject: bugger

An acoustic engineer has been, it seems hopeless.

Due to the construction of our house there is no chance that treating just the ceiling or floor will make any difference, the sound is being carried by the walls and a isolation chamber would need building inside the room to cut the sound. This will cost big money, and Lisa would shoot me.

He did think changing the living room door would be worthwhile so I will do that.

Time for 'Plan B'....

Kevin.

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Date: October 11, 1999 04:32 PM
Author: Cliff Patterson (cliff.patterson@abscon.co.uk)
Subject: try an architect

Kevin,

it sounds like your accoustic engineer doesn't know much about building. I'm not totally up-to-date, but I did study a bit of architecture as part of a town planning degree.

Inside buildings, most of the sound goes through the air, rather than through the walls. Cavity walls also contain air. If you can damp the air mass you can reduce the sound propogation.

Try the following:

1. Any cavity walls can be filled with heat insulating material, which also has an accoustic damping effect (contact a good builder)

2. Any partition walls made from plasterboard and timber frames can also be damped (try using fibreglass matting between the plasterboard panels - this requires removing and refitting and replastering one side)

3. All doors and windows need to be draught, and hence sound, proofed. Try double glazing and, for the doors, try a curtain in the inside of the door, hong from the frame above. To open the door you then need to open the curtain, of course.

At the end of all this, some sound will continue to go through the wall, but at a lower level than before.

As for plan B ... does that involve earplugs for the wife, or something more drastic?

Cliff
zzzzzzzzzzzz

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Date: October 11, 1999 04:54 PM
Author: Kevin Hughes (Kevin_M_Hughes@Hotmail.com)
Subject: the walls have ears

Cliff,

The whole house is constructed with plaster board on battons over brick work. This gives the sound an easy way to move around the house. Walls that are far away from the sound source still carry quite a lot of noise.

Plan B will be posted shortly.

Kevin.

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